Question:
Don't you hate it when Y!A is Currently Unavailable?
emilia
2009-06-22 01:37:56 UTC
It's not letting me do anything. I've tried answering two of my contacts' questions, multiple times, and they won't post.

I'll be surprised if this shows up.

Okay, so here's my question: Do you like me?

No, seriously, my question is:

How can you give an opinion on a book or some aspect of it, and have it be worth something? All of my opinions on books are just gut reactions "This seems better written than this one" and "I loved it/ hated it." I don't know how to communicate anything about writing, I don't know much about literary elements, and I don't know what I'm talking about in general. I love to read, but reading a lot of the answers posted on here discussing literature makes me realize that my opinions mean nothing since I can't give good enough reasons. I can't argue well enough. It's making me feel very closed-in and I already know I'm inarticulate.

So, advise me. I don't talk to anyone about books but you guys and about two and a half other people I know. What's my problem, and what can I do to fix it?

PS Yeah, I did stay up all night.
Sixteen answers:
reader
2009-06-22 09:50:07 UTC
Yes, I really do hate it when Y!A is unavailable. It annoyed me so much last night (this morning) that I took Alberich's advice and went and sucked up to Molly the mule. Who still doesn't like me much. :(



I, on the other hand, like you very much indeed. You're one of my favorite people in the whole wide world. I'm entirely serious about that.



I guess you could take all the sound and sensible advice you've gotten here.

You could imagine a nice long answer from Vet too.



Or you could do like I do and ....







... wait for it ....







BLUFF!





I know nothing and people never seem to notice.
Lyra [and the Future]
2009-06-22 08:26:48 UTC
I hate it when Y!A is currently unavailable, especially when I have an especially helpful or long answer to give someone. Sometimes I get so tired of it that I just email the person my answer XD



Do I like you? arabesque, I love you to death!



Now for your real question:



Honestly, I'm not really sure how to answer this. Everything I know about analyzing literature and "properly" giving opinions I learned this year. The others are right; taking a literature class would help. Honestly, you don't do the same kinds of analyzing when reading for fun that you do when you're reading for class. When I read for fun, the most I can come up with is examples of theme and symbolism- in my opinion, the easiest literary elements to pick out. And sometimes foreshadowing. If you notice, I really only answer book-related questions having to do with either Twilight or HP because I know those books best. I've read and digested HP so many times that I *can* pick out lit. elements.



Don't feel bad, arabesque. It's true that an opinion is stronger if it's backed by evidence. But I don't think you have to use lit. elements as evidence, at least not necessarily. If we were talking about how HP supports positive ideas for girls, you could say that Hermione is an example of this because she's terribly bright and clever, then give a few examples from the books. That would be sufficient.



And anyway, your opinion matters to the B&A Family. It's not as if we'd think bad things about you if your answer wasn't strong. In fact, I think you *should* start answering. Get some practice, you know? Get comfortable. When I first started here, I had no idea how to form articulate arguments about my favorite books and such. I learned that over time, by answering those types of questions a lot. I know they make you a little uncomfortable, but at least try! :)



I hope this helps! And yeah, I really shouldn't be on Y!A at all right now; I can see how you stayed up all night XD Good luck with your day, haha.
2009-06-22 04:33:02 UTC
Ok, all opinions are valid whether they give in-depth reasoning and numerous examples or not, but I understand what you're asking. Personally I couldn't write intelligently (read: critique) about a book until I took English Literature at college and was taught how to examine stories for their themes, symbolism and character development.



I'd suggest taking a Literature course as the best way of learning how to express your opinion more thoroughly because you get critiqued yourself which obviously helps you improve. If it's not possible for you to take a course for what ever reason, how about joining a book club? Perhaps your school has one, or your library, or even your local book shop? Getting together with other people who love to read to talk about books is a great way to start. At first you might not know what to say but after a while of listening to the discussions I'm sure you will find your feet and your opinions will grow in eloquence. If you surround yourself with articulate opinions (either in the classroom or in a club) you will pick it up, trust me.



Be warned though on occasion dissecting a book can ruin the enjoyment you get out of reading it.





EDIT: For Michelle - I agree the vast majority of books improve on understanding the finer details, the likes of which you give examples, but I think it depends on the kind of books you read. In my Literature class we were walked through Chaucer's Canterbury Tales and taught about the history of 14th century England, what passed as humour and the construction of the prose. Without the background the Tales would definitely have lost a lot of their intelligence and the humour almost certainly fallen short. However, if someone's favourite book is highly flawed in a literature sense and that someone has the flaws highlighted, the book is open to losing a lot of its enjoyment. Some books just can't hold up against a literary bashing, but they are loved just the same.



It's all relative and down to personal opinions of course. You made a really good point though.
ALEX
2009-06-22 03:16:48 UTC
I hate hate hate is when Y!A is currently unavailable. I hate the "errrr" thing. Every time I see it I want to blow up my computer. I turned my computer off because i thought it might be me. And I hate turning my computer off. It happens like once a year, which probably isn't healthy for it.



Umm anyway yeah Billet Doux went psycho and cried everywhere on facebook. No wonder everyone thinks she's a loser. I had a nice nap.



I like you. I like you a lot. I stalk you. I think I might love you. In a totally non-sexual way *cough*



Ok your real question.

I'm exactly the same as you. I actually suck at the subject 'english'. I love reading but I don't like analyzing books 99% of the time. I'm not doing a single literature course at university and I don't care. I just... don't have the knack I guess, or the education, or the intelligence. I read a book and think "wow I really enjoyed that, but i don't really know why". I just enjoy the story I guess. I appreciate the symbolism and whatever else there is but to me it's not as important. My favourite books aren't the best books ever written and I acknowledge that but i love them anyway. When I read a book I don't pull it apart but after someone else does I can't help but view a book from that point of view. That's probably the reason I liked Twilight when I first read it, but after reading other people discussing why it was terrible, I couldn't view it the same. When I read it all I could see was the flaws. In saying that there are books that i read and dislike. I hated reading Emma and didn't get into Brave New World. I know they're supposed to be classics but they just weren't for me. I can't explain why.



This is the most inarticulate and disjointed answer ever. Don't blame me. I'm exhausted.
lildioicus
2009-06-22 08:34:27 UTC
Um, It makes me want to spit nails when I have a real hankering to answer a question. Especially if someone has me all riled up. If they tell me that the server is unavailable after I have constructed some scathingly brilliant answer then I usually copy and paste it and post it later after starring the question so I can find it again of course. Well only if I remember.



Do I like you? Well of course I do.



I read more and discuss books more than most people because I have a handicapped daughter at home who is sick ALL THE TIME. One of my ways of escaping is through books. I want to be with her. She is stuck in this place and I am stuck with her. With a book I can go any where. Don't get me wrong, we aren't having a pity party. Just our lives.



To answer your last question? You can join a book club. That is fun. I haven't done this but some of my friends have and they seem to really enjoy it. You can become a librarian or just hang out in a library and talk to librarians. Or take classes in English. Mind you, I haven't done any of those things either or at least not recently. Or you could marry a bookaholic like I did and then you always have someone to discuss a book with. Also be born into a big family, six or more preferably, and then have lots of kids of your own. I managed to do this too. Then read to them. Eventually whether they know it or not they start to love books and once they are hooked there is no escaping! Bru hahaahaha. At that point there is always someone to discuss books with or what ever else you are reading be it the newspaper, letters, blogs or road signs. I also have a family web site on which we regularly discuss books and movies. Yeah I know it's weird but I didn't start it, I swear! I think it all started with J.K. Rowling's first book a few years back and has been snowballing ever since. P.S. it's always fun to find someone who does like to discuss books. Hospitals are great places to find such people. I even had an argument with a doctor about the book "The Bean Fields." What fun! Hey why don't you volunteer at the book mobile in the hospital?



So it is my opinion that every person who reads a book has a valid opinion for how they feel about the book. Especially you, since it is your opinion and that is the one that really matters to you after all and whether or not another person agrees with you and whether or not you discuss it with anyone, it is still a valid opinion. Besides you really do know why you like or hate a book. You just need to think about it. I would be willing to bet on it! How can you say you are inarticulate? Seriously? No you aren't.
Eich (#14 - Stewart Haas Racing)
2009-06-22 11:25:02 UTC
First, I do hate it when Y/A is unavailable. It's always when I have done a lot of research and given a very detailed answer!!!!!!! I've gotten pretty good at quickly saving it until I can slip it there. But, it is annoying!!!!!



Second, yes, I do like you! You are on my "fun to answer" ppl list!!!!!



And, to answer your question: Every answer given is worth something. Every answer given IS WORTH something. You do not have a problem. The best answers I feel are gut reactions. Those reactions are coming from you the reader. They aren't coming from a columnist whose job it is to slice the book fourteen different ways. You loved it? Why? You hated it? Why? Overall, would you read another book from said author? (examples)



As far as literary elements are concerned I wouldn't worry about them. I don't think that's what a lot of individuals are worried about at the moment. I suppose if we were in a book club, we would learn a lot more about literary elements and such. We're a group of ppl who enjoy reading and passing on info about authors we enjoy in hopes someone else can benefit from our reading experiences. Good or bad. In return, this forum gives us additional information about authors, books. It makes us more "knowledgeable".



I feel like you do at times. I'm afraid to answer a question after reading all the other wonderful replies. And, should someone get technical, it makes me even more timid about replying. I have started to do this: I read the question, hit the answer button, do my thing, and when that's all over, I wil go back and read what everyone else as written. And, I hope I can leave with my dignity!!!!! ha ha ha I joking!!!!



Several things I do know are: 1) You are definitely articulate 2) The more we are in B/A, the more we all learn; the more knowledge we gain 3) The easier it becomes to write our thoughts down for others to read; it gives us a boost of creativity. 4) I can't think of any other place (except NASCAR) that I would rather be. I've gotten a lot out of being here, knowledge and friends.
2009-06-22 08:02:16 UTC
YES. I absolutely hate it. I also hate the fact that it happens so often, and for long periods of time. I've yet to see a site malfunction as much as y!a. Take now for example, it's Monday but y!a is still calculating my points as if it were Sunday.



Of course I like you =) you were my first contact I added but didn't know in person.



Well, to be honest the best way to learn is by taking a literature class. However, as someone already pointed out as long as you have a strong argument it doesn't matter so much if you use literary jargon.



Here is your lesson of the day! Literary devices are the parts of a work that we analyze through its language. I've generally used them to support a theme of a novel. ie: You can use setting in The Secret Life of Bees to support the theme of racism and it's effects of 20th century America.



To be honest, i'm not 100% sure that example was correct (though I think it was). I completely understand why you don't know this stuff >.> it's a heavy load of information.
mannon
2009-06-22 22:30:48 UTC
I'm in the same boat... my answers have been not showing up too often and it's making me a little paranoid.



I, too, base my opinion of books on my gut reaction- read this, it's great; don't bother it's stupid... and I've wondered how to, I don't know, sound like I'm doing a knowledgeable critique or something.



So I'm not going to be much help on this one. The only things I can think of are to study literary criticism some how, or fudge from book reviews : ).



I'm curious what kind of answers you'll get- will definitely follow this question.
2009-06-23 06:59:32 UTC
Yes, it's quite frustrating when Y/A is unavailable! I hope they fix this problem soon.



Any opinion on a literary work is of course subjective. More so, because the literature by definition is subjective as a whole construct. Your answers and responses ARE worth something; they are subjective opinion of a learned person. Don't feel closed-in or inarticulate; you definitely are not the latter.



The following site provides very useful information about the elements of a literary work one might be interested in analyzing:



http://www.rscc.cc.tn.us/owl&writingcenter/OWL/ElementsLit.html



I have always enjoyed reading your responses, and find you on the opposite end of the spectrum of inarticulateness.
ә соӏе і
2009-06-23 00:52:01 UTC
Hey at least "currently unavailable" is all you got. It crashed IE8 on me when that occurred.



I think gut reactions are just as valuable as literary critique. Honestly some "horrible books" are ones that in my gut I love. Opinions give great insight into a book without technical mush. Thus don't stop giving them.
Billet- Doux
2009-06-22 01:52:16 UTC
Same!

I tried answering your previous question multiple times and then it ultimately said "This question has been deleted"

So I gave up :(



But I was ecstatic when I could answer again. I admit, I was refreshing the page for over an hour :P



Do I like you? Of course.



In regards to your other question, I wholeheartedly agree. You've pretty much summed up what I would've said, and I won't bother typing it because it would be just a more brief version of what you said.



And now I have to attend dinner.



P.S: I don't have the stamina to stay up all night. I envy you.
?
2016-05-23 18:34:42 UTC
Yes
Michelle
2009-06-22 08:47:27 UTC
Arabesque,



I went through withdrawal symptoms last night staring at the "Yahoo! Answers is currently unavailable" sign. Fortunately, it gave me an excuse to go to bed.



I like you. I think you're speshial. I also think you're articulate, witty, and funny - so you should have no trouble speaking eloquently about books once you learn a bit of the lingo and tricks of the trade.



I like justagirl's advice to get in the habit of discussing books with friends - join a book club, or answer book-related questions on here as much as possible (as opposed to the we're-a-family! questions we've been indulging in lately - lol).



I will challenge justagirl's last statement though, if I may? Richard Feynman (Nobel physicist) once said that to understand the science of a flower does not detract from its beauty; it enhances it. I agree with Richie. My favorite books are those with the most layers of meaning, that I can peel back like an onion to discover through social and political commentary, symbolism and subtext, the core message of the author.



So, assuming you can't whisk off to a literature class in 15 minutes, I'll offer a few tips based on how I analyze a book. Note that I'm not claiming this is the best way to analyze books, it's just my way.



(1) Author's Intent. This is very important to me. Some people are social purists and care more about the de facto influence of a book on its era, but as a writer myself, I care very much about what the author intended to say.



The easiest way to tell this is to look at how the author treats her characters. Characters who grow and prosper and have happy endings are typically 'sympathetic characters,' which means it is likely that the author agrees with their beliefs and/or actions. Sympathetic characters are not always the protagonist. Often, the protagonist is flawed, and endures negative consequences that reveal his or her actions or beliefs to be flawed (in the opinion of the author). For instance, based on the events of 'Frankenstein,' would you say that Mary Shelley supported or disagreed with the idea that "man should play God"?



(2) Social and Political Commentary. If you read one of Kathryn W's recent questions, you'll see a few of us stood up for the importance of social and political commentary in novels throughout the ages. Kathryn was playing devil's advocate, asking if it was okay to edit the P&S commentary out of old classics in abridged versions of books since it may no longer be considered relevant in today's society. I'll quote from my own answer to that question, since it is relevant here, too: "Most of the classics, timeless as they are, are set in social and political climates that bear no resemblance to the world today. How are we supposed to understand our history if we erase history from our most compelling records? Fictional characters often tell a more accurate story of past eras and events than our history books do, because they are told from a human perspective, with emotional consequences. It is the incidental things, the gaps between wars and other big events - the stories of the Annas [Karenina] and Atticus Finches and Jean Valjeans - that reveal the larger truths of an era." So, my second tip in reading books, Arabesque, is to look for the P&S conflicts of the era that the book was written in (consider the setting of the novel *and* the time frame the book was written, since they are sometimes different); consider what influence politics and society had on the book *and* the influence the book had on P&S. For instance, Animal Farm qualifies for both: it reflects the influence of communism, and it also influenced how we as a society thought about communism.



(3) Symbolism. This is a literary device I adore; in fact, I'm in danger of seeing too much symbolism in others' works, and using too much of it in my own. An apple, to me, is always forbidden fruit. Snow is always death and the tranquility that comes with it, the great equalizer of society ("It makes an even face / Of mountain and of plain," - Emily Dickinson). Water is many things: it is rebirth, absolution/baptism, change, the source of life. There is such a wealth of symbolism, especially in the classics, that if you pay just the slightest attention, you will begin to see subtext and hidden meanings unravel all over your favorite works.



Okay, despite the fact that I have written a book here... *sigh*... please don't go looking for the symbolism. I do hope you'll consider me with sympathy since I seem unable to finish any of my manuscripts, partly because I'm content to write monolithic missives here with you in cyberspace.



Enjoy the reading, Arabesque! :)



xoxo



Michelle



*Edit* Justagirl: Nice riposte, my dear.



However, I never said that literary analysis would bear up a piece of tripe; nor should it.



But that doesn't mean you can't enjoy it. I enjoy nothing more than a nice Sauternes paired with foie gras au torchon, but I also still like M&Ms.



Understanding literature does not diminish our desire for 'guilty pleasure' reading, it raises the caliber of it. Many of us still enjoy Harry Potter, but not necessarily Twilight. We have at least walked away from our educations demanding that novels have plots...



As for Chaucer, I commend your nuanced appreciation. Personally, I found that Canterbury Tales simply does not improve with study, but then again I haven't tried since I was 14... (14th Century humor? Please! Collapsible lawn furniture is funnier.)
2009-06-22 02:41:16 UTC
Hell, YEAH
irection
2009-06-22 01:42:56 UTC
hell yeah
Hypocorism
2009-06-22 13:52:39 UTC
Like many people, I have dabbled in most of the practices of literary criticism; they all have value, though I have found several to speak to my interests and my personal canon more than others. I have enjoyed reading, occasionally used, and to different degrees internalised a few aspects of deconstructionist, structuralist, textualist, historical, biographical, and feminist modes of thinking about books. This kind of nomenclature is verbose, but useful here because it is easy to understand and historically not too inaccurate: modes of reading are universal but the recent history of criticism gives some of them names; it is more important for a reader's growth to have a finely developed mode of reading than a finely articulated one. In trying to convey correctly my sense of the possibilities of a developed literary ear I shall try to overarticulate as little as possible, and this discourse will be personal and irregular.



At present I am often mistaken for a strict textualist, though the fault is my own; I am certainly a textual primicist. Literature exists not in the text per se, I feel, but the friction of the act of creation against the primary conception, which is only reliably manifested in the text. For me the right experience of reading, perfectly realised, is sympathy with the author in specific moments of creation, seen through the filigree window of text on paper or on screen. Sometimes what imports in creation is unconscious, sometimes conscious; I am a far better reader of the conscious than the unconscious, and so, many kinds of symbolism I believe often elude me, and structuralism (which inherits from anthropology, and from Jung and Freud among others) is one of the things I have been least able to internalise. For me it is good lines, when I have sensitised myself to them, that most easily let me see into the author's mind. A good line is always a shared aesthetic experience between the reader and author, and is also contextually relevant and universal. To boot, often it is evident that the best lines were made up outside of the act of composition, perhaps originally in conversation or in contemplation unrelated to the book. Thus when I feel I can understand what would induce me to write the most striking expressions in a work, I feel I have gone as far as possible at the finest level of granularity to understanding the book; this understanding goes a long way to evaluating the larger scale importance of the `filler' in the book. (Of course filler is necessary to achieve a reasonable tone of voice, and every author, especially Shakespeare who wrote 100,000 lines, writes a lot of filler.) It is only through sympathy, which seems to happen at random, or rarely, but does happen if one looks for it, that one can see all the way through a text to its conception.



Here are a few examples: Yeats's poem, `The Fascination of What's Difficult' obviously began with the word `dolt,' clearly his feeling about some of his theatrical colleagues. The rhyme on `colt' created the Pegasus imagery (pegasus of course is a common correlative for poetic inspiration) and on `bolt' led to the image of the stable. The whole rest of the poem is simply built around this tension of hindered genius in the dynamic of these images. The rest is filler, and very skilfully rendered. In Prufrock, it is likely only two stanzas formed the original conception of the poem: the one containing `Do I dare disturb the universe?, etc,' which is a description of a specific feeling, and the one later containing, `the eyes the fix you in a formulated phrase, and when I am formulated, sprawling on a pin...' which is the much finer poetic realisation of a precise aporia that often happens in conversation. `The yellow fog' stanza was obviously interpolated from some other fragment of a poem. The rest-- the two stanzas on either side of the `sprawling on a pin,' of approximately the same shape, lack the immediacy of the middle one and are simply very good filler. Likewise, all the stanzas up to `Do I dare...,' again with a similar stanza shape, are simply atmospherics that were designed around the feeling of `do I dare.' The genius of the poem is in fact that Eliot's filler is of a far higher poetic order than in the Yeats poem, and second, that while the poem ought to have ended at the line, `of lonely men in shirtsleeves, leaning out of windows,' Eliot effectively starts to write a second poem-- all filler-- designed to give the first half greater musical and psychological resonance. A third example is that the first quatrain of Keats's lovely sonnet, `Bright star, would I were stedfast as thou art,' is more awkward than it needed to be. One should ask, why does the poet write these awkward lines-- what would induce me to do it? A little bit of thought reveals that Keats probably switched lines three and four without rewriting substantially-- he was probably originally writing a Petrarchan sonnet with an abba rhyme scheme rather than abab, but later for some reason switched to the Shakespearean form. It is for this reason that first lines of books are always so interesting-- by the time the author as finished writing the book, she probably has 5,000 sentences, and any one of them could be retooled for the first line if it is relevant. Also the process of writing produces all kinds of sawdust, some of which may have been perfect somewhere, but not anywhere in the book. Likewise, the first line is very likely culled from somewhere else in the writer's life-- examples which come to mind are the first line of Pride and Prejudice, or the first line of A Tale of Two Cities.



I know I have taken up a lot of your time with this response, and I thank you for reading. Obviously a whole book or a whole poem is more than a series of lines which may be great or filler. In thinking about a larger work I also try to achieve sympathy with the author by understanding its structural principles. Some novels or poems were written from beginning to end (such as either Byron's Don Juan or mostly Wordsworth's Prelude; but the organising principle of the Prelude is preexisting while Don Juan was composed largely impromptu); some were outlined and some authors disdain that procrustean bed. Some writers write with a calendar, and some do not. Everyone inserts fragments of his or her friends and fragments of themselves, for this is all one has to go by; but for some authors the fragments are bigger than others. In Huxley the fragments are bigger than in Joyce, and they are bigger in Joyce than in Austen, and in my strongly held opinion for which I have no direct evidence whatsoever, bigger in Austen than in Shakespeare or in Homer, and perhaps often bigger in Shakespeare or Homer than in Blake. This is by no means a measure of literary quality-- Joyce is every bit as good a writer as Austen, and Point Counter Point is one of my favourite novels, even though D.H. Lawrence is more alive in that book than in his own works. I never let biographical criticism inform my reading of a work initially; but I must read literature by the light of authorial bias or experience when the work colours the light in turn because observed two-way communication is evidence of communication. Therefore too, any work for which biographical evidence is missing, such as Shakespeare's Sonnets, is more enigmatic than if that detail were available. In these cases, one must be wary of drawing conclusions simply because nobody is likely to be able to controvert them. Finally, by remembering the large scale progression of a work, whether of chapters in a book or stanzas in a poem, or cantos in a long poem, one can work back to a weaker kind of sympathy with the author over the months or years of composition (or days, in the case of Samuel Johnson's delightful novel Rasselas). This is for me where primarily textual criticism meets the biographical point of view and very tenuously shakes its hand.



I would finally add that feeling for a book's time period (as Michelle says, both of composition and setting), and for the author's place in it, is ineluctably the largest part of appreciation of a book. Moreover, it cannot be put on like a jacket in any way, except the most gradual. I have not found comments from others to help me much in gaining sympathy for an era, though reading their books helps a little. What helps the most is simply reading a large number of books contemporary with each other, and the requisite history and criticism as well, but only where necessary and not in excess. For me, I know a few times and places well-- not perhaps so well as the present, because my impressions of the past are more stylised and certain, probably wrong and certainly less fluid than for the present; but my appreciation of books from these milieux is incomparably greater than books I pick up at random. The brighter spotlights in time for me involve fourth century BC Athens, Rome from 50 BC to 50 AD, London from 1550 to 1643, and London from about 1770 to about 1815, and perhaps London in the Edwardian and early Georgian eras, though the centrality of London here is less important. For the eras sandwiched among these, I feel quite out of place in the Victorian era compared either to the Edwardian or the Regency, and while my troubles are not so great, Cromwell's or Early Georgian England are very much more foreign to me than Elizabethan/Jacobean or late Georgian England. What I would suggest you do, if you want to, is find a period that you love and read a few dozen books from the era-- literature, whether novels, drama, poetry or whatever is relevant, as well as nonfiction, even that era's history books or their literary criticism or the letters of your favourite authors....


This content was originally posted on Y! Answers, a Q&A website that shut down in 2021.
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